So in addition to illustrating your comment about the virulance of a community outside any specific product (”That’s interesting because it says to me that this community might outlast any particular company or any particular brands–especially true in online land, and in the world of entertainment offerings, like games. So it’s not just this particular community, maybe, in part, but it’s relationships with a holistic, pre-existing community that also matter. And so it is “a very active and meaningful role.”), there are a couple of other pieces this hopefully illuminates. One is that the community very much existed outside of (and indeed, before) the official Ubisoft boards I managed, and continues currently. You perhaps did a better job of characterizing it than I did, I was very much an ambassador of the corporation, though, indeed, I had authority in “my” forum (which I actually can’t remember actually ever using). Though too, I wouldn’t have hesitated had we had any significant presence of trolls, ie., intentionally disruptive individuals. And certainly it was a very careful role in other forums, where I was a guest. The other bit being that when I worked at There, I was able to reestablish my very close ties with the exitisting Uru community… I was seen as continuing to value their experience and work to make it positive. I saw my role to be beneficial to both corporation and community by making community perceptions, goals, and wants known within the company (see my post about the invisibility of community managers…). And was appreciated for that by the community, in other venues. Genuinely. A community manager can’t function without holding “their” community in highest regard, and without community approval. And… in large part this is why I find the whole thing so fascinating and so inspiring. There’s a whole world of very delightful human dynamics going on daily… evolving practically minute by minute.

Certainly there’s a space for unmanaged communities, but don’t doubt that this just means the emergence of community leaders happens on a more haphazard basis. Sometimes that’s excting and altruistic, sometimes less so… my point being that the same dynamics of the formation of community leadership apply in both, CM or no. As they do in all human society (see “fascinating and inspiring” above), where, yes, community leaders emerge, even town sheriffs (I’d humbly suggest that I can make a much stronger case for this as an appropriate Western metaphor: one fundamental notion being that you need to have the town with you or it’s just not going to work). Can I influence the culture of a community as a CM? Yes, as can any community leader (sort of by definition). Does that mean the corporations win? Only if they realize that they have the potential for a long-term mutually positive relationship with their consumer community.

Well, first off, apologies for not having made myself more clear initially… some of my thoughts on this topic are in my post here: http://virtualcultures.typepad.com/virtualcultures/2008/01/the-case-for-co.html

And/or I’ll reiterate one of my central points… that what community managers are doing is not well understood outside of the profession.

One point is that, as I stated, to be successful as a community manager you have to be, and be seen as, part of the community. Accepted by the community, valued by the community, and while having a community leader that’s employed to be a community leader is different than simply having community leaders (as in “ungoverned” communities) who gravitate to authority by virtue of their wisdom, charisma… or lack thereof, the core notion is that you are a member of the community. Acting as an obvious shill to take advantage of the community members is rather obvious, and unwelcome, what a surprize. This possibility is not, in fact, unguessed by the community, and, indeed, is the expectation. A community manager has to demonstrate their value to the community to the extent that they are accepted by the community. They form a long-term relationship, or at least, that’s the goal. A community “degenerates” into the kind of nasty, troll-laden, unpleasantness one often sees in “etribes” otherwise… as often, people rise to become dominant cultural voices by being bullies. This is what a good CM prevents. And why even some discussions on blogs are moderated. There is no shortage of examples of how unmoderated communities can fail: community leaders emerge and influence the community, whether moderated or no. And, at least from what I’ve seen, there’s no doubt that the kind of behaviors and relationships seen in unmoderated communities occur in moderated ones as well.

And to characterize the “managed” community as lacking in emergent behavior and/or as a “herd” is … well, just uninformed. Sorry Rob, just no two ways around that one. My little analogy was meant to illustrate this: a community goes where it wants to. Reacts as the individuals comprising it see fit. If they’re not happy with a direction, you’ll hear it, and if your response isn’t appreciated, it get’s worse (add iteration). It was also meant to vaguely allude to our political process, and to draw an analogy to the very real similarities between offline and online social dynamics. And if your responses to disruptive individuals aren’t in alignment with the community views on the topic, your role as a community leader will end pretty quick, banish button or no. You’re leading because you understand your community and can help them achieve their goals. Or you’re not leading. Which is one of the things I find delightful about it: ideally it offers the potential to change the traditional marketing relationship to one that’s much more interactive, long-term, and genuine. And you’d best be paying close attention, as emergent community dynamics are happening all the time… heck, we’re talking a simulation where social identity is far more obviously plastic than in most other situations (Burning Man being an exception). The very premise is emergence, and the notion that you, as CM, are trying to forge some sort of mutually beneficial long-term relationship is, I would argue, pretty much a close second. Heck, on some level, your final description of study and community… what’s emergent, what’s not, what’s the ideal relationship? is what (the best) community managers do daily. It’s their job. That’s just what you have to do to be successful.

Again, it’s a long-term, mutually beneficial relationship, with the rewards to the community more meaningfully being a pipeline for product input than schwag… though I’d not underestimate the value of schwag to a fan.

I don’t really think we’re much in disagreement on most of this… and I’d be happy to tell you more about what I’ve seen, in the trenches, as it were. It would be great to get together and chat, are you going to be out this way any time soon? One of the aspects that adds another layer of complexity to discussions like this is the limited information capacity of the medium.